‘TRUTH’ With RFK Jr. and Naomi Wolf: Fighting for Our Constitutional Rights

The following is a transcript of this video. Also see related article.

– I’m very, very excited about talking to you because I feel like you and I are kindred spirits. We’re apparently the only two liberals in America who, you know, who are… I don’t know what happened to liberals. It’s really bizarre because we all grew up reading Kafka and Orwell and Aldous Huxley and Atwood, who wrote “The Handmaid’s Tale,” and Cormac McCarthy who wrote “The Road,” and they all predicted exactly what we’re going through now. And it just felt like we were all, you know, on the same page, and it is very, very strange to me, almost inexplicable, how all these people, friends of mine for life and people that I’ve admired and people whose writings that I read and have acquiesced as something that clearly is on a path to a totalitarianism and to what we used to call fascism, which I noticed you pointed out on your talk with Tucker Carlson. And Mussolini, who had an insider’s view of that, used to complain that fascism should not be called fascism, that it should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And Franklin Roosevelt, who was at war with him, his definition of fascism was the domination of government by corporate power. And here today, we’re living in a world where you have government officials who are censoring criticism of pharmaceutical products that have no incentive to make them say these companies, the four companies that make, the primary company that make vaccines in this country, they’re all serial felons. The people in Merck, Sanofi, Glaxo, and Pfizer, over the last 10 years have paid $35 billion in criminal penalties.

– Whoa.

– And damages. For falsifying science, for defrauding regulators, for bribing, blackmailing doctors, for selling drugs like Vioxx that they knew were gonna kill people. Vioxx killed between 120,000 and 500,000 Americans. It was a headache pill that they knew, that Merck new caused heart attacks, and they did it anyway. And when we sued them, we got the spreadsheets from their bean counters that showed that they knew it, and the bean counters were telling them, “We’re gonna kill so many people, but we’re still gonna make more money even if we have to pay ’em off ’cause we’re gonna sell so much of this stuff.” Well, that was 2006, the same year that got GARDASIL approved, the same company. So how does anybody think… It takes cognitive dissonance to believe that these same companies, if you remove liability, if you give immunity to them for all that behavior with one product vaccine, vaccines are probably the only place they can never get caught ’cause they’re immune from liability. No matter how badly injured you are, no matter how grievous your injury, no matter how negligent or reckless they are, no matter how toxic the ingredients, you cannot sue them. There’s no discovery. There’s no depositions. They’ll never get prosecuted. And so how do liberals, who know these companies are corrupt, all of a sudden they say, “Well, they’re lying to us about everything except vaccines, and anybody who criticizes vaccines should be silenced.” What happened?

– It’s extraordinary. I mean, I have the same questions you do. And I have to say, I have the same feeling that we’re in a club that started out with millions and millions of people, and now they’re like five or six liberals I can count on my hand.

– Who are they, by the way?

– I mean Glenn Greenwald has stood fast against totalitarianism for the free speech, but he lives in Brazil. So it’s almost easier as an ex-patriot to criticize the United States these days. I mean, God, maybe it’s just him, you, and me. Amy Goodman was one-

– Amy Goodman is-

– But she is gone.

– Is gone.

– She’s completely subsumed in the orthodox again and is militant about it.

– Yeah, I and I know why.

– Even Noam Chomsky, you know?

– Really?

– People who were, what I won’t, you’re gonna say about Andy Goodman.

– No, I was gonna say that I’m kind of, there’s so much to talk about, but first I wanna validate that I’m having a similar kind of emotionally devastating or disorienting experience that I’m literally doing nothing but saying protect the Constitution, and the only people I’m hearing from are Libertarians who are on the right saying, “Stand up and fight for the Constitution.” And the left is like, “Shut up, sit down. You’re killing Grandma. Don’t give aid to the enemy. How can you talk to the conservatives? This is not the time for freedom. This is the time for a kind of communitarian self-censorship,” and it’s absolutely devastating. What I was gonna say, kind of chiming in, I’ve watched your work for many years, and I never felt like vaccines were the heart of my personal list of concerns. I respect all the research your organization does. It seems incredibly well-sourced to me. I appreciate you for other things you’ve done in your career as well. But now I am seeing a kind of takeover, a corporate-government merger. One of the bad actors is absolutely the pharmaceutical companies, but another bad actor, and this is linked to the pharmaceutical companies, is the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, as you well know, as you’ve reported. And so what I’ve been doing is going through his 990 or that organization’s 990, and so many millions have been committed from that foundation to “The Guardian,” to the BBC, to Amy Goodman, to NPR, to “The New York Times.” And so that’s why you and I are sitting in our homes talking to one another on Zoom instead of talking to “The New York Times” or on Twitter or on Instagram. Both of us have been de-platformed from various social media platforms recently because the influence, I mean, we’re seeing this kind of terrifying aggregation of five or six technologies, I would say big tech, I would say under other bad actors but definitely pharmaceutical companies, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, merging with funding policy, funding the CDC Foundation. Believe it or not, pharmaceuticals give tens of millions of dollars to the CDC Foundation, and then it’s this unholy mess that then aligns tech companies to kind of censor anyone who criticizes the pharmaceutical industry. So you get like this kind of 360 degree totalitarianism with a few industries coordinating, putting pressure on governors, buying up politicians, buying up the political process, and buying up speech, and here we are. And I guess when you say what happened, I mean, that’s a deeper conversation, but I think that it was incredibly genius messaging. You know and I know that when you’re at kind of in the rooms where the sausage is made or in the rooms where policy’s made at the highest levels of government, you really have to look at events backwards. And what I mean by that is, and I’m speaking as a former political consultant to the Clinton reelection campaign and to Gore 2000, I learned there a lesson I never forgot, which is first comes the goal, then you get the people in the messaging department to sell the goal and by any means possible. So looking at this kind of backward, or reading this backward, the fact that everyone I know on the left whom I love and from whom I feel more and more estranged, unfortunately, has been sold the narrative that you have to get these not fully-tested vaccines even if you’re healthy, even if you’re young, even if you’re not at statistical risk. You have to not have human community. You have to give up freedom to assemble. You have to give up freedom to worship. You have to give up property rights. You get to watch small businesses get crushed. People selling their assets at fire sales. You have to watch a massive transfer of wealth. And you have to do all of that because this fear of this virus is so pervasive, and this narrative has been so unscientifically sold, I’m not surprised that people I love who only read “The New York Times” and listen to NPR believe this, but it is breaking my heart. The fear is so great that people give up all their rights in order to be safe from fear.

– When I went to this rally over in Berlin, I was shaking hands, and I wasn’t wearing a mask, and nobody there, there’s a million people there, and none of ’em were wearing masks. And an NBC crew came up and they said, “Aren’t you scared of the coronavirus?” And I just said, “There’s things I’m a lot more fearful of.” And they said, “What?” And I said, “Losing my constitutional rights,” which is why, you know, I mean, the American Revolution took place because you had people who were willing to die for the Constitution, to not lose their rights. And as you and I know, the Constitution was not written for an easy time or for popular speech or for simple decisions. It was built for emergencies and to protect the speech that was unpopular, that was dissenting government policies. Nobody wanted people to talk about it. And for hundreds of years, our country and our government had protected that right religiously. You get to say things that offend other people even if they’re pornographic or even, you know, I remember that, you know, in this very difficult crisis for liberalism when the Nazis wanted to March in Skokie, Illinois, and I think most liberals in this country came down on the right side of that, which is, yeah, they need to be able to march, you know? That we need to fight for the right of the Ku Klux Klan, of the Nazi Party to be able to express themselves, and we need to win our issues in the marketplace on debate and ideas.

– Right.

– And not by silencing people. Then particularly when you come to medical issues, censorship has no place and authoritarian has no place, authoritarianism has no place in medicine. Medicine is about listening to people. That’s how you getting information that you use to make a diagnosis and prognosis, et cetera, and a prescription. And you can’t be silencing people and censoring people and telling them, “You can’t just start talking.” I mean, Facebook, so many people have been de-platformed for saying, “My father got the vaccine and then died.”

– Are you serious? That’s been happening?

– Yeah, again and again.

– Oh, my God.

– If anybody shares that Instagram piece or that Facebook piece, they are left off. I’ve seen this for years. mothers who say, “My child got autism from the vaccine,” or, “My child got food allergies from a shot,” “I got rheumatoid arthritis and diabetes, and I won the case in vaccine court,” and they get de-platformed for talking.

– Oh, my God.

– It’s a weird kind of world we live in. What you said at the beginning I think is true, that you have one of the reasons for this kind of liberal flip over is just propaganda. It’s as simple as that. And the pharmaceutical in 1997, the pharmaceutical industry in this country won a huge victory, which is the FDA and FCC got together and said, “We are gonna allow pharmaceutical direct-to-consumer advertising on TV.” There’s only two nations in the world that allow pharmaceutical companies to do direct-to-consumer ads, and one is here, one is in New Zealand. The other’s in New Zealand. And that was the beginning of the takeover of the pharmaceutical industry of the American government because now they unleashed this tsunami of money. And they not only are using those airwaves as a platform to advertise their product, but they also have so much control over the network itself that they can dictate content. And you started and saying this hysteria about flu season every year, about measles outbreak, which never made the news when we were kids. And you add the only independent press that’s left, is like “The Guardian” and NPR and public television and “The Independent,” and you had the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation come in and neutralize all of them. And so they have this kind of monolithic control now that’s really, I think, unique in history. And, I mean, Gates has so much money. Can you imagine the damage that you could do if you had a billion dollars, or what I could do, how many lawsuits I could file, how many friends I could have? And he’s got 133 billion, and he can deploy it any way that he wants. And it’s so much money and so much control. And normally liberals would look at that kind of an aggregation of power, and they’d say, “This is dangerous and we need to be skeptical. We need to scrutinize everything this man does because those kind of, that kind of power is something that democracies have always, always feared.” Well, you know, our revolution was against the aristocracy and against this coalition between the aristocracy and government, between the British East India Company. That was why we had the Boston Tea Party, because they were giving tax breaks that American merchants weren’t, that the little guys weren’t, and they were partly owned by the king. And it’s the same thing today. There’s all of this, now this web of relationships between these billionaires. And, by the way, all of these guys, there’s been a trillion dollar shift in wealth since the beginning of this. It’s not the pandemic that was doing it; it was the lockdown that has caused this, which CNN never talks about. They never say, “This is what cost of lockdown.” They say, “This is the cost of pandemic,” but it’s not.

– Not true.

– Pandemic has a different cost. Lockdown is what has opposed all those costs that you talk about, but bankrupting a million businesses. 60% of black-owned business in this country that will never reopen. Where are the liberals on that? 60 million Americans that have lost their healthcare that liberals have been fighting for for generations to get healthcare for those people. We have demolished The New Deal, the New Frontier and the Great Society, all of those programs that liberals have been putting together since 1932, that created the middle class in this country, that gave us at 60 years of uninterrupted prosperity after World War II, and that made our country the model for the world and the model of stability, democracy, and everything. And that middle class is now being obliterated, demolished by this lockdown, and nobody ever accounted the cost. Nobody said if Tony Fauci never got on TV and said, “Here’s how many people we’re gonna kill from suicides from the lockdown, from heart attacks, from stress-related illnesses, from starvation, from lack of medicine because we’ve destroyed the supply chains for foods and medicines.” Here are all the programs: the school lunch programs that we’re no longer gonna be able to afford in this country, the arts programs, the sports programs, the higher education subsidies that made our country the best-educated country in the world. And all of these other programs that really made America what it is, that liberals created. And that in one year, they have taken a wrecking ball to it because of a virus. Listen, there’s a million and half people who die every year globally, about 1.6 million, from tuberculosis. It’s an airborne respiratory infection. Why aren’t we having lockdowns? Why are we all wearing masks? I’ll tell you why, because there’s already a vaccine, and it cost $2 a shot, and nobody can, there’s no bat on it, nobody can make money. You have about $48 billion, and you have Bill Gates who owns half of ’em, And Tony Fauci whose agency owns the premier ones.

– Oh.

– Yeah, I mean, NIAID owns the Moderna vaccine, has the patent for the Moderna vaccine. And there’s six of Tony Fauci’s top aides that own royalties to that, so they’re getting, so people in his agency collect $150,000 a year in royalties on that vaccine.

– How is that legal? Isn’t that-

– You know what? Tony Fauci made that legal. It was made legal in the Bayh-Dole Act, which was, I think, 1982. The Bayh-Dole Act didn’t mean to do that. Senator Bayh and Senator Dole, who I knew both them very well, what they wanted was to make sure that universities that work on medicines, that develop medicines, could sell them and make royalties, and that the government agencies could own patents on products they helped develop because, at that point, they were developing the products and giving them away to the industry, and the industry would make all this money, and people were saying, “Oh, taxpayer funded?” So they did that. But when HHS developed it to in-house guidance, it said, “Well, we’re also gonna allow the individuals who worked on that product while they’re in the agency, being paid by us, the taxpayer, that they can make unlimited…” At that time, it was unlimited. And then in 2002, there was a congressional investigation of a drug called interleukin, and it turned out Tony Fauci, which was going through Tony Fauci’s NIAID, through his agency. And when the inspector general of HHS, they had realized that the interleukin-2 was causing depression, suicidal ideation, and capillary leaks in a lot of the study subjects, but they did not warn them, which they legally had to, so there was a federal investigation. And Tony Fauci had made sure that the new brochures, which to inform the study group of what was happening, that they did not include that information.

– Oh, my God.

– And when Congress investigated it, they found out that Tony Fauci owned the patent for interleukin.

– Oh, my God!

– And he, at that time, he could collect unlimited royalties.

– Oh, my!

– And he agreed as a result of that investigation, informally, that any money he made, he said publicly, he never signed an agreement, he said publicly, “Any money I make I’ll donate to charity.” He didn’t say what charity, and nobody has ever followed up. And it could be his kid’s school charity or whatever, you know? When people give to charities, they give to charities that have a reciprocal altruism aspect to them.

– That’s just-

– And so at that time HHS, because of that scandal, HHS changed the rule for the first time and said, “We’re gonna put a cap on it, $150,000 per year, per patent, per individual.”

– Oh, my God! So these guys are all… And the CDC owns 58 patents.

– So when-

– His agency owns 1,000 patents. I think close to 2,000, like 2,200 patents.

– I mean, my head is exploding. I just have to jump in here because I have to process what you’re telling me. You’re saying, and this confirms reporting that we’ve been doing, that, clearly, we’ve only reached the tip of the iceberg. I know that Fauci earns $500,000 a year and the top amount-

– Yeah, he makes more than the vice president in his salary.

– Is at top-level government workers, are supposed to earn is 180,000, and he just got a million-dollar gift from the State of Israel for speaking truth to power. So I’ve been wondering, where is the extra $320,000 coming from? And from what you’re describing, it sounds like he’s got a direct conflict of interest. So when the CDC pops up and says, “Go get your vaccine, go get your vaccine,” that message goes right to Mr. Fauci’s bottom line and his colleagues’ bottom line. Is that what I’m hearing? I mean, is that actually what’s happening?

– I don’t know how many patents he owns, and nobody in the press has ever asked him. He has this capacity to, you know, he’s been there, he’s the J. Edgar Hoover of public health. He’s been there for 50 years, and the only way that you will have survived in that agency for 50 years is by carrying the water of being in the tank with pharma. There are some great rate scientists in that agency: Bernice Eddy, one of the greatest scientists in American history, John Anthony Martin who came out at that agency, Judy Mikovits, and many, many… There’s a long list of ’em who have stood up to pharma, who have said there’s problems with this product, and they were all crushed and spit out. The one guy who has survived is Anthony Fauci. And that agency is no longer really a regulatory agency. It doesn’t do public health. It’s an incubator for the pharmaceutical industry. So let me just tell you briefly how it works. He has a $6 billion budget. He gets another 1.7 from DARPA, from the military, which is very sketchy, and that’s what funds a lot of the scan of function studies where they’ve been developing these microbes, that these supercharged microbes that are with a increased, the transmissibility in humans and the virulence still there really. What he does with that money, originally that agency was created to study the etiology of these infectious diseases like Rocky Mountain fever, and then chronic diseases were added after around 1960. We started for the first time to see allergies, food allergies had been emerging, and then they exploded in 1989.

– Around.

– Food allergies, autoimmune disease, rheumatoid arthritis. So they added allergic disease to his portfolio and autoimmune diseases to his portfolio. But he doesn’t do any of that research. He doesn’t know research. In fact, he kills that research. What he does is he funds drug development. So at his agency and their lab, developed a experiment with all kinds of molecules that find a virus that they wanna kill, put the different poisons into the Petri dish, see if it kills it, and if it works, then he’ll say, “Okay, we’re gonna develop this into an antiviral medication,” like Remdesivir is one type. Then he takes that Remdesivir, he gives it to a college, to what they call a principal investigator, and there’s 10,000 of them in the country. These are the people, they’re the deans of research departments and medical schools, and they’re top people in the medical schools, and they do the clinical trials for the pharmaceutical industry. You’ll go through the Phase I trial, is the animal trials, with them, and if it works, then he sells it through the Office of Technology Transfer to a drug company. Then Merck will come in or Gilead, and they will develop it through Phase II, Phase III. He now owns half the patent. He gives patents control, royalty rights to favorite people in his agency.

– Oh, that explains so much.

– And then he runs it through FDA. So when it gets to FDA, he says… Well, the FDA doesn’t actually approve the drugs that it’s gonna license. It has an internal panel that are made up of what they call, what he always calls it, “independent experts,” independent scientists, but they’re not independent at all. They are his PIs. They are people, if you look at who they are, they’re people who all, virtually all of them, are taking money from NIAID in their day jobs.

– Oh, my God.

– And they sit on panels that approved the drugs that then go to the public. So between 2009 and 2016, there were hundreds of drugs approved by FDA. Virtually all of them came out of his shop.

– Oh, my God!

– Hundreds of them. So he’s really, he is the incubator for… He does not do research on disease. He figures out how to develop drugs to kill diseases, not how to stop the disease from happening. And chronic disease under his watch, since he got there in ’84, chronic disease rate among Americans was 12%. Today, it’s 54%.

– Oh, my-

– Under his watch. The autoimmune disease has exploded. Rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes epidemic, the food allergy epidemic. The autism has gone from one in 10,000 to one in 34. And Tony Fauci, if anybody tries to… What he does is he makes sure nobody, because he is tied in with the food industry, with the chemical industry, for the pharmaceutical industry. You know, epidemics don’t happen… Genes don’t cause epidemics. Epidemics, you need an environmental toxin. So we know all of these kids who are now sick, the sickest generation in history, that has to come from environmental toxins. And it would be very easy to figure out what toxins are causing ’em, but he won’t do that research, and anybody who tries to, like if you have a doctor, a scientist at a medical school, who says, “I wanna see whether autism is linked to vaccines,” he will come in and say, “We don’t want that research done.” And he has the capacity to ruin scientists, bankrupt medical schools, and destroy any scientist in the world that he wants to because of the control that he exercises.

– Right.

– So that’s kinda the backdrop. I’m sorry, I’m talking too much.

– No, no, I had to hear this. I mean, this is a central piece of what is otherwise a very mysterious puzzle. And I feel like I understand a lot of what’s going on, but without this gigantic tangle of corruption and institutionalized, self-replicating corruption at the heart of kind of disease production and mitigation production in the United States, we can’t possibly have the full picture. I mean, you just provided like black hole at the center of this whole system. I guess I have a lot of followup questions. I mean, it’s extraordinary. I don’t understand why everybody doesn’t know this. I mean, I understand that you, there are forces trying to kind of marginalize your voice and marginalize the voices of people who agree with you or support aspects of this kind of set of facts coming to light. By the way, I just wanna tell you, I was de-platformed for quoting almost verbatim the language on the Moderna website that describe the mRNA process because I was really struck that they provided a kind of side-by-side comparison for investors and for shareholders and maybe for consumers that show how traditional vaccines, you can only kinda use them once, and you have to kind of deal with them in a not very cost effective way, but the Moderna mRNA vaccine is like, they said, a software platform that you can upload new software to. And I was thinking, “This is a business model.” It’s just gonna, you know, they’re gonna tweak it and change it, tweak it and change it, tweak it and change it once you have that initial shot. But they were presented-

– And Tony Fauci, the reason he gave 2.6 billion in our taxpayer money to that company is because that platform, if he can show that it works for the Moderna vaccine, he will own it for all medicines. Oh, he owns it forever.

– He owns-

– Oh, I mean, not him, but NIAID, his agency, which is his power. I mean, it’s like you can’t separate him from NIAID anymore than you can Bill Gates from the Gates Foundation ’cause people are not trying to make currency there. Money for them is currency, but it’s a currency of power. It’s purchasing power over other human beings, and that’s why everybody ultimately wants to accumulate more money than they can spend in a lifetime.

– Right, exactly.

– Gates could not spend that, even a tiny fraction of his money, on food and shelter or on airplanes and fun.

– No.

– So why is he getting it? He’s getting it because it gives him some kind of power to impose his vision for good, or better or worse, on the rest of us.

– Wow, this whole-

– And Tony Fauci has the ultimate power, which is he now controls, he controls global medical policy, and as we’ve seen, it gives him more control than any politician in history. He shut down the global economy. He has shut down the global economy without any science that says that lockdown works.

– Exactly.

– He’s made us wear masks without any signs, without… You know, maybe masks do work, but science that we’re looking at says they don’t.

– Yeah, it’s a wash.

– But, oh, we should have had that argument. Like you said, you can’t just keep declaring them urgencies. You need to be able to say, “Let’s have a public hearing on this.” Do what you’re supposed to do: publish a proposed rule, have notice and comment rulemaking, go to a public hearing where you bring, where you do an environmental impact statement and an economic impact statement and a regulatory impact statement, where you explain the scientific justification. You cite all the scientific stuff.

– They never do!

– Then you have a hearing where you bring all your scientists to show, and we get to cross examine them. And we get to bring ours, and we have a fight, a big fist fight in there. And there’s a judge who listen to it all and writes a report, and you can sue him if he acts arbitrarily and capriciously. And that’s what called Due Process Clause that the Constitution requires, but they’ve waived the Constitution. Now you’ve got these medical tyrants who are just saying, “Masks don’t work.” And then two months later, “Everybody wear ’em.” Now, “Wear four of ’em,” and it’s just crazy.

– Well, yes, so so many things. I just wanted to note that the CDC seems to be absorbing more and more powers that go beyond its original mission. And this was a process I saw in the Bush era when they invented the Department of Homeland Security, and then they kept folding in and folding in new powers. I’ve been really chilled to see the CDC kind of claim powers over evictions, right? Which are not, like, you don’t get to say who does what with their property or with local laws or state-level laws. And I’ve been very concerned to see that the CDC director is making statements about whether kids can go to school or not go to school. And it seems like there is a mission creep, right? I mean, these things are not, we never had a CDC director that had so many powers in his portfolio, and I don’t really understand what happened with the law or with the regulatory structure that affects the CDC to fold all these new powers into his brief, but I’m really concerned about them. And I’m also concerned that at a state level, state boards of health are being kind of invested with all these new powers to, again, without showing the science, without any review, without any kind of limited extension of their rights, are saying, “Well, you have to close down worship in Massachusetts,” or, “You can’t gather more than 10 people in New York state.” And I-

– By the way, abolishing jury trials, that’s another constitutional provision.

– Yes.

– Abolishing property right, abolishing warrantless search and seizure. Now they can follow you all day long and watch what you’re doing with tracking and tracing.

– And just to jump ahead, so there, I just wanna say what I see is that there has been a kind of really strategic construction of what I call bio-fascism, a kind of tyranny, and I have to say led by Dems. I wish it wasn’t true, but the Dems are really leading the charge on this in our country. It’s Boris Johnson in his country. It’s Trudeau and his country. But in our country, it’s the Biden administration, and, unfortunately, that’s because the tech bros and pharma, to some extent, have close ties with Democrats, It may be that you think they have equally close ties with Republicans, but this cabal is now what, you know, from what I see kind of investing new powers at the state level and at the federal level so that under the guise of a medical emergency, they can continue to burn and shred our Constitution. And I just wanna say one more thing about how crazy it’s getting. At a certain point, I remember, like, there are echoes historically, right? You talked about many echoes in the past, and we should look back on closing democracies at times like this because we’re at what I call “step 10 of the 10 steps to fascism,” and history shows exactly where this goes. But what starts to happen when people get so much power, as you described, is that their own weird psyche starts to get played out on populations. Like you see this with Stalin. You see it with Mao.. And now we’re really seeing it again because I’ve seen so many deep financial ties between Fauci and Bill Gates. And so now we’re seeing kind of dictots that really don’t make sense. They don’t make scientific sense. But it’s like when Cheney was just riffing on torture illegally and saying, “Okay, now you can put women’s underwear on the prisoner’s heads. Okay, now you can have female interrogators threaten them,” and things were just getting weirder and weirder. Remember that? And it was like you were seeing someone’s unpleasant id with no filter. And so now I feel like we’re getting into a territory where I feel like I’m waking up inside Bill Gates’ id. Like the announcement that Cuomo just made. He’s under attack, but not enough because he still has his emergency powers. But weddings, you can have weddings, but people have to be in dance zones, and they can’t touch each other, and they have to wear masks, except when they’re drinking, even if they’re outside, and you can’t socialize from table to table. I mean, it’s like a super psychotic nerd, OCD projection, just like the four masks, three masks, five masks. It’s someone who has no restraint, and is kind of not a human being. And it’s playing out everywhere. And, as usual, everywhere I go, I ask small businesses, “Well, when you were told you could only have 25% capacity, did the Board of Health give you any peer-reviewed studies?” No, no peer-reviewed studies. “Well, when you were told that you can’t gather to worship in the state of Massachusetts, Rabbi, did the governor gives you any peer-reviewed studies?” No peer-reviewed studies. So we’re in this kind of Alice in Wonder, post-constitutional reality where when the governor or the president or the CDC dude says, “Suspend all your rights and don’t touch each other. Suspend all your rights and you can’t hug your dying great aunt. Suspend all your rights and wear 12 things on your face,” we have to do it. Let’s go now to kind of what we can do, if you don’t mind. Like, this morass is so deep, and I just always, at times like this, but now more than ever, wanna call everyone’s attention to what you were saying about what is the Constitution for. You’re so right. The Constitution, our founders, weren’t like, “Okay, from 1960 to 1995, when everything’s pretty much fine, you should use the Constitution. And then when you hit a bump, when there’s a bad disease, you can suspend it for as long as you want.” That’s not how our system was set up. And you’re absolutely right that our system was not set up so that those voices that Twitter and Facebook, along with pharma and Bill Gates, think should say what they want us to say get to be heard. Our system was set up so that the most robust debate could take place. We could say anything short of not First Amendment protected speech, which is very, very limited. And it was set up that in crisis after crisis, after crisis, our Constitution is there, and it sustains us through the crises. So nothing is gonna be on the other side of this crisis without the Constitution, right? Nothing. Like, we could all lock down forever. We could all do California or do New York forever. We could maybe restrict some losses of life, although, as you say, the data are in, and states and countries that lock down are doing no better than states and countries that are wide open because, as many epidemiologists point out, you don’t restrict , you don’t develop population immunities by simply locking people down. That’s not how viral infections work. And we could do that forever, but what’s on the other side of it is nowhere anyone would recognize as the United States of America or any kind of free society. So I guess on a kind of happier note, what I am seeing, I don’t know if you’re seeing this, is even though you and I are super lonely as liberals on our tiny, shrinking, melting ice flow of six liberals who are saying free speech, First Amendment, Constitution, I do see a grassroots hunger. And I’m sure you’re getting these emails, I’m getting them by the hundreds, of people across the political spectrum saying, “I see this tyranny. It’s crazy. My child is suffering. My business had to close. The crazy people are in charge. Nothing is ahead except darkness. How do we join forces across the political divide and speak up for our Constitution and our rights and our freedoms?” So that’s my long rant, and I wonder what you think about that.

– Yeah, I mean, that’s wonderful. One of the things that we should, and I also think it’s a continuum, the same continuum that you say from 2001, from 9/11 and the… Listen, totalitarian elements within society use crises to expand their power, to expand their wealth, and to shift wealth, the middle class and the upper echelons, and then to clamp down police powers, surveillance, and all those too, to do something that is inherently unpopular, which is to make the rich richer and the powerful more powerful and to take away democracy. And we have to remember that these public health agencies have strong ties to the Pentagon and always have. I mean, the CDC began as the Public Health Service. It began during World War II as a malaria program to protect soldiers abroad. And before that, the Public Health Service, it’s a military organization. That’s why people at CDC wear military uniforms, and have military ranks, like surgeon general, et cetera. They have very, very strong relationships with the military. And they also have increasingly strong relationships with the intelligence apparatus. In 2009, the Obama administration announced public health as the spear tip of Americans’ foreign policy concerns, and ever since that time, we’ve this increasing involvement. That same year, okay, it’s appeared at the UN and with a $10 billion donation, which then said, “We’re gonna make the next 10 years the year of vaccines.”

– Ugh.

– “So that by 2020, we will have completed our decade of vaccines.”

– Jesus.

– And he worked in tandem with the public health agencies to achieve that, and now we’re living today in a place where you have this very, very unhealthy collaboration between the public health agencies and the tech industry, and they’re shifting wealth of a trillion dollars, has largely accrued to those billionaires. And they are the ones who are, I mean, it’s Amazon that’s getting richer from the quarantine. It’s Mark Zuckerberg who’s getting richer. It’s Sergey Brin. It’s Larry Page. It’s bill Gates and Michael Bloomberg. And they’re all the ones that control our communications. They’re the ones who are calling for censorship of anybody who complaints about those government policies that are enriching them.

– As they would, that are enriching them. Pfizer is 27% up.

– Isn’t it so obviously that we should, that everybody should be like really pissed off about this?

– They should. You mentioned the control. I mean, something so notable early on in the pandemic is that Bill de Blasio tried to bring in Mike Bloomberg, some tech bros from the West Coast, and Bill Gates to re-imagine life in New York city after the pandemic, everything from education to work and so on. And there was an outcry. I like to say that I helped contribute. But these weren’t even New Yorkers. They weren’t elected. And we’re seeing this in country after country, that COVID pandemic committees made up of tech people and pharma people are being brought in to kind of be the unelected extra parliamentary powers in a post-pandemic state to just bypass democracy. Something I really wanna stress when you’re rightly calling out that these six guys kind of own our communications and profit from the lockdown, I wanna talk for a minute about education. I run a tiny tech company, and we build digital databases based on government data, so socially shareable legislative database. So I know it takes a long time to build a digital product. Overnight, all the kids in America had curricula for distance learning, like overnight, and every minute, and you know this, but a lot of people out there don’t know this, every minute that human beings are in a classroom together, at a bar together, worshiping in a church or synagogue or mosque together, that’s money that tech companies are not making because their business model is eyeballs and data. So every minute your child is sitting in front of a computer losing social skills, not learning how to read facial cues, not learning how to bond with other people, or create community, or be on teams, or all the things you learn being a human child in school, that’s money for a hundreds of millions of dollars generated revenue, distance, educational tech company profits. So I just wanna say that in the last thing I wanna say about this kind of-

– That’s a really good point.

– Thank you. The last thing I wanna say about the holistic control of this whole pandemic and the marginalization and de-platforming of people like us, who are so smart and patriotic and thoughtful and serious, but even if we weren’t, we shouldn’t be de-platformed, is that the most of the major news outlets who’ve reported on the pandemic cite the COVID-19 Tracking Project or Johns Hopkins database. So again, I build databases like this myself with developers, so I know exactly that you can tell any story at all with a digital database. It just depends on what you’re feeding in the backend, as we call it. And no one gets to see the raw datasets that these COVID platforms are declaring. So every day you see, or this was true until about six weeks ago, you would see these vast, scary charts. Always the cumulative number was reported as if it was that day’s number, very deceptive. But even if that wasn’t deceptive, it was datasets you couldn’t see, datasets you couldn’t vet or confirm as a reporter. It’s not confirmed. It’s just a dashboard saying this is the situation. And who owns those platforms? So Mike Bloomberg funds the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health that provides one of the platforms. And also the COVID-19 Tracking Project uses data from a hedge fund called Enigma Business Solutions, I kid you not. And who just bought it? Well, “The Atlantic” houses it. And it’s not a government agency. It’s not a medical site. And who just bought “The Atlantic”? Mike Bloomberg. And who puts the kind of graph of COVID infections and deaths right underneath other Bloomberg kind of share recommendations worldwide, bond recommendations worldwide, Mike Bloomberg. So in my analysis of this kind of 360 degree control of the information about a pandemic, it’s also a way to legally kind of, legally illegally invest in the stock market. In other words, if you can control the economy, and you know five minutes before Mike Bloomberg puts it up on the COVID-19 Tracking Project that there’s gonna be a drop or there’s going to be rise, you’ll know whether to keep your shares in Amazon or sell your shares in Amazon. So it’s a fantastic way for a few rich guys and their buddies to take any risk out of capitalism basically, with us and our lives and our kids’ lives being the media by which they short and long the economy.

– Wow, that is something. Well, Naomi, I’m gonna give you the last word on that because I talked too much during this podcast, but it was really-

– Not at all.

– It was really fun talking to you, keep fighting and let us know if there’s anything that we can do to support or help you.

– Thank you.

– Let’s keep in touch with each other and figure out if there’s any other liberals left in America. What did we come up beside you and me? Did we come up with any other ones?

– No, we’ve come up with one so far, which is pretty scary. I mean, lots informally who are writing to me, and I’m sure writing to you, but on a kind of national recognition level, I mean, who? I can’t think of anyone. It’s tragic. There’s one thing that I did wanna announce to your audience. My publisher, Chelsea Green, has made the first and last chapter of “The End of America,” the book I wrote about the risk of fascism in America, back in 2008, she’s made it available for free on the website, Chelsea Green, and you have to go there because I’m still de-platformed. But I’ve also written a new introduction to spell out that we’re at step 10 and how we got here, tied to the current bio-fascism crisis, and I call for a return to what I call “analog spaces,” bookstores, schools, libraries, human connection gathering, so that we can bypass these gatekeepers who wish us ill. What can we do? Look, I’ll leave you with this thought. I think we should start up grassroots movement, and I’ve already kind of started it, and you’ve already kind of started it, and it should be nonpartisan, and it should be simply about taking back the Constitution. I’m actually coaching people to run for state legislature, just ordinary people.

– Oh, great.

– Moms and dads and people from all walks of life. I don’t care what party. And the the goal is to make emergency powers impossible ever again and simply to protect the Constitution.

– What’s the name of your group? And how do people, like-

– Well, thank you. The site is called Daily Clout, and you can join on dailyclout.io, but the movement itself, we’re just calling it the Freedom Movement, to keep it completely open, with no goal except to run people to state legislature to take back the power, to protect the Constitution. Like, that’s our only goal. And also together, people together, to talk across party lines and kind of remind each other how we can stay free in a time of encroaching tyranny.

– I mean, one of the strategies, clearly, of the kind of the totalitarian forces is to keep us all divided between black and white and to constantly be heating that up between Republicans and Democrats. On my website, we try to discourage, for that reason, all partisanship because that language divides us, and we need to understand that the real enemy today are these, you know, the technocrats and the billionaires who have gotten together to divide. It’s called the “urban strategy,” as you probably know, the strategy that was used in the Old South to divide poor people from each other, to keep plantation owners in power. Let me ask you one other thing before we go, which is on your… ‘Cause this is something that’s very interesting to me because of the impact on my own life. But on your personal life, on friendships, people that you’ve known your whole life, relationships that were important to you… You were in the Clinton campaign. You’ve had a long history in the feminist movement and at the cutting edge of liberalism. You’re a very, very important, outspoken liberal leader. What’s happened to those friendships?

– Ugh, you’re asking very painful questions, but they’re the right questions to ask. I mean. Ugh. I can’t pretend they’re not fractured and some are broken. I mean, there are friendships and there’s a tribe, right? So my close friends are still my close friends, but there are things they ask me not to talk about because I think it’s painful for people who are still in that consciousness of absorbing everything “The New York Times” says to think that powerful people are lying to them, and they have not, they’re not ready to grapple with that. I have a lot of arguments with people I love. Some of them, you know, my mom agrees with me for the most part and has evolved her thinking and looked at my sources. Some other beloved people I won’t name are pretty angry at me and argue with me a lot. There are friendships… Now when I say a tribe, like you know in the kind of circles of whatever, influence, privilege on both coasts, there are communities and networks. I simply am not included anymore in some of the prestigious communities that used to like to have me on their guests lists. That’s okay, I can live with that, but I think that what’s really, really painful is that I haven’t changed, the left has changed, and what’s painful to me is my tribe, my network, my extended kind of colleagues, have given up critical thinking and they’re not acting like patriots. They’re summer soldiers. And that’s what’s been most painful for me of all. On a happier note, I’m meeting a lot of new, wonderful people across the political spectrum. Some liberals that are as depressed as you and I are, but mostly Libertarians and conservatives, I’m sorry to say this, and people from all over the world who understand, as you said, and this is the truest thing anyone can say right now, when people say, “Aren’t you scared?” I know as the granddaughter of Holocaust refugees, there are things scarier than even a very serious pandemic, and that is the loss of liberty that we’re seeing right now. So I’ve lost a family, and I’m gaining a family, and the family is everyone who cares about freedom.

– Naomi Wolf, thank you very much. Thank you for everything you do, and thank you for joining us today.

– Thank you so much.